Archive for the ‘Pop Warner’ Category

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More on Carlisle vs the Big Ten

October 16, 2011

Several details regarding Carlisle’s dominance over the Big Ten teams they played need to be addressed. First off is when the games were played. The first of these games was played in 1896 and the last in 1909. 1908 is the last year for a post-season road trip as the Penn State games were regular season games played against an in-state team that wasn’t their equal. 1907 was the only one of the seasons in which these games were played that Carlisle had a one-loss season. None were played in Carlisle’s 1911-13 glory days.  Warner complained that the bigger teams stopped scheduling games with Carlisle after they became strong. It appears that he was accurate in the case of Big Ten teams.

Eight of these games, a slight minority, were played when Warner wasn’t coaching Carlisle. He did coach the Indians against Chicago in 1907, Minnesota in 1907 and 1908, Northwestern in 1903, Nebraska in 1908 and Penn State in 1907-1909. Penn State was improving at the time but hadn’t reached the level of Carlisle’s major opponents. Pop Warner considered the victory over Amos Alonzo Stagg’s 1907 Chicago team to be one of his greatest because Stagg thought he had his strongest team to date that year. 1907 was the first year in which Carlisle was defeated but one time. It was also the first year the Indians defeated Harvard, one of the Big Three.  The only loss was to another of the Big Three, Princeton. It was also the first year that Carlisle beat two of the Big Four, Penn and Harvard.

1908 marked the end of Carlisle’s post-season trips to play Big Ten teams. That year the Indians defeated Nebraska in the teams’ only meeting 37-6 and they lost to Minnesota 11-6, in their last meeting with the Gophers. Newspaper accounts alluded to something happening in the game to sour the two schools against playing each other, but I haven’t uncovered the details yet.

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Why Was Utah Chosen as the Opponent?

May 17, 2011

My blog will be less regular from now to the end of summer as I deal with some other things. Keep the ideas coming; some of my best blogs come from researching questions readers submit. Now, back to Carlisle’s 1903 postseason trip to the West Coast.

One of the questions I was asked was why did Pop Warner pick the University of Utah as an opponent. My guess is that Utah was located in a location that was convenient and that they had the potential of drawing a large enough crowd of ticket payers to make stopping for the game worthwhile. A basic reason for a having a game somewhere between the Mississippi River and the Pacific Ocean was to keep the players sharp and to keep them off the train for awhile and give them some physical activity. Some other western colleges and universities met these criteria, too. What think made the difference was that Salt Lake City was a regional rail hub through which the team would likely be passing anyway. The question was, which team should Warner choose to play?

The only viable choices were Utah and Utah State because Brigham Young was not yet fielding college-level football teams at that time. Utah had had a pretty nice run from 1900 to 1902 but had lost to all of its college-level opponents in 1903. Utah State, on the other hand, had a poor record from 1900 to 1902 but had beaten both its college-level opponents in 1903 and one of them was Utah! The issue of how large a crowd Utah State could draw in Salt Lake City was probably asked. Utah State is located in Logan, 82 miles from Salt Lake City, so its supporters could make the game. But would Salt Lake City residents turn out? The thought was probably that they wouldn’t turn out as well as they would for a game with Utah and State probably wouldn’t bring enough people from Logan to offset this difference. Shock! Shock! Money probably played a role in the decision.

To be continued….

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Utah Prepares for Carlisle Game

May 5, 2011

Coach Holmes wasn’t wasting any time in preparing for the Carlisle Indians because, as The Salt Lake Herald reported the next day, December 12, the varsity was out for signal practice the day before and would be practicing again that day. As predicted, Fred Bennion and “Fat” Robbins had joined the team for the big game. Benny was a fleet-footed halfback, and one supposes, a relative of Fat Robbins.

Holmes also shared with the press that Pop Warner had written him the previous day informing him that a game had been arranged with Reliance Athletic Club on Christmas Day in San Francisco. A third game was mentioned—a New Year’s Day game in Los Angeles—but the Indians’ opponent was not mentioned by name.

A friend of Holmes who lived in the east wrote him that he had seen Carlisle play that year and that they would be a formidable opponent. He pointed out their use of the tackles-back and wing-shift formations. The latter formation was used more often and confused the defenders. No Utah team had used this puzzling formation and it was expected to cause Utah’s varsity a lot of trouble.

The next day, The Herald reported that Warner had telegraphed Holmes the day before that the Indians would arrive in Salt Lake on Friday morning and would remain there to Monday. Warner and Superintendent Pratt both felt that travel was a broadening experience for their students and had them take in as much as possible when traveling for games. Carlisle players didn’t just come into town at the last minute and leave as soon as the game was over. They availed themselves of the cultural opportunities that existed wherever they were playing.

Warner also requested that the game consist of two 30-minute halves. In those days, football games didn’t have a standard length. Sometimes, the two halves were even of different lengths. The Utah players were enthusiastic about meeting the Indians and said they would be perfectly happy if they could just score on them.

To be continued….

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Carlisle-Utah Game Settled

May 3, 2011

The Friday, December 11 Sporting section of The Salt Lake Herald was more definitive as it led with “Date Settled for Big Game.” Other headings included, “Carlisle and University to Meet One Week from Tomorrow,” Varsity Will Strengthen,” and “Holmes Picks Several Stars to Play with team.” The article started “The big football game between the Carlisle Indians and the state university will come off one week from tomorrow on Cummings Field. This was definitely settled yesterday, when Coach Holmes received a telegram from Coach Warner stating that it would be agreeable for the Indians to play on this date and that they would probably arrange a game for Christmas to be played in San Francisco.” The reporter mentioned that this news was received well by University of Utah students because those who planned on going home for Christmas would then have the opportunity to see the famous Carlisle Indians play the local squad.

The rest of the article dealt with Coach Holmes’s plans to strengthen his team for the game against Carlisle. His Utah team had only gone 3-4 for the regular season. Wins were over Ogden High School, the Fort Douglas soldiers, and the 12th Infantry. Losses were to the four college teams they played that year: Colorado, Utah State, Denver and Colorado State. These results did not portend good things for them against the Indians. To give Carlisle a little better competition, Holmes added “Fat” Robbins, Utah’s greatest center to that time, Fred Bennion the old line-smashing fullback, Paul Nelden a high school tackle, and Joe Anderson former University tackle.

An article titled “Why Not Play Christmas?” appeared further down the page. In it, Coach Gay of the 12th Infantry team was reported as saying that he was going to Logan to arrange a game with Utah State in Salt Lake City on Christmas Day now that the date was open. He thought the local fans would enjoy seeing the 3-0-0 championship team play. That game did not materialize as the Christmas edition of The Salt Lake Herald mentioned Carlisle’s game to be played that day on the West Coast but was silent about any local game.

To be continued….

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Carlisle to Play Utah on Christmas

April 26, 2011

The next day’s issue of Deseret News out of Salt Lake City announced the upcoming Carlisle-Utah game with more vigor but no new facts; “The University football players had better get their scalps in pretty good shape between now and Christmas, otherwise they may lose them. Word has reached the city that the Carlisle Indians are due to swoop down on the Varsity bunch that day, and if possible ‘lift their scalps.’ …Nothing definite has been decided upon but the probabilities are that a sufficient sum of money will soon be forthcoming to induce the Indians to come here. The [Christmas Day] game would be the biggest gridiron event of the season and would undoubtedly pay well.”

The November 27 issue of The Red Man & Helper included game scores for the entire regular season, including the victory the previous day, Thanksgiving Day, over Northwestern but made no mention of post season games, either possible or scheduled. The next day’s “Notes of the Gridiron” column, probably circulated via a wire service gossiped about possible post season games: “Notre Dame and Indians are talking of a post season game. Carlisle and Haskell may play Dec. 5 for the Indian championship.”

That Sunday’s Salt Lake Herald blared “Big Game for Christmas Day” and “Varsity Signs Contracts to Play Indians Here.” In part, the article stated, “This game will be none other than one in which the famous Carlisle Indians will play the principal part and the other team will be made up from the present eleven representing the state university, with the pick of the players on several of the other teams to fill in the weak spots on the varsity. The date of the game is Christmas and it will be played on Cummings field. The contracts for the game were signed several days ago by the members of the varsity athletic committee, but the facts were not given out until yesterday, The signing of the contracts by Coach Warner, for the Carlisle Indians, would indicate that there can be no hitch now and that the game will be a sure go.”

To be continued….

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1903 Carlisle-Utah Game – Part 3

April 21, 2011

Now that we have a hint that Carlisle intended to make a post-season trip to the West Coast in 1903, we need to dig further to find out more. More detail about this game appeared in the November 13 edition of Reno Evening Gazette with a dateline of Salt Lake City:

“The Carlisle Indians have agreed to meet the University of Utah football eleven here on Christmas Day, providing a suitable guarantee will be put up by the local management. This will be done. The Indians are coming west for the purpose of playing in California on New Years’ Day and en route will meet a number of teams.”

This article supports the November 2nd article about Coach Holmes wanting such a contest. Whoever released this story, possibly the University of Utah Athletic Department or a booster, was very confident that both attendance at the game would be good and that someone or someones would be willing to put up the guarantee money in case ticket sales didn’t meet expectations. That someone was probably already known to the writer.

The same day’s issue of The Red Man and Helper included a little piece that ties back to an announcement made the previous month:

“One of the football players of Sherman Institute, Calif., writes the following: ‘We play with Stanford University sometime soon, and also expect to play with the Carlisle Indians. We will show them some western tricks. It will take some pretty good players to defeat us.’”

That player’s boast implied that Bemus Pierce had a pretty good squad at Sherman. The next day Sherman Institute beat Southern Cal but lost to Stanford University in a big Thanksgiving Day game played at Prager Park in Los Angeles. Scholder was out at tackle but Bemis Pierce suited up and filled in at fullback.

To be continued….

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1903 Carlisle-Utah Game Part 2

April 19, 2011

Since writing the first installment on this topic, I came across some more relevant information that may play into it. The October 9, 1903 issue of The Red Man and Helper included a paragraph that, on first look, seemed to have nothing to do with Carlisle’s post-season. Assistant Coach Bemus Pierce left Carlisle on October 7 to accept a “flattering offer from Riverside, California to coach the Sherman Institute football team….” The first hint of Carlisle’s post-season trip appeared came in a “Gridiron Gossip” column published in very late October in which claimed, “The team will play at the Northwestern University, Chicago, on Thanksgiving Day, and then go farther west and will play at Pasadena, Cal., on New Year’s Day.” The Northwestern game had been the last game on the schedule for months, so the trip west was new, though not surprising, information because the Indians previously played in California after the 1899 season.

On the 2nd of November, a story came out of Salt Lake City, Utah that stated, “Coach Holmes said last night that there is some probability of his securing a game with the Carlisle Indians when the football team makes its trip to the coast. He is now in correspondence with the manager of the Indian eleven and hopes to consummate a deal whereby it will be arranged for Utah State University to play Carlisle a football game in this city in the near future.” As usual, the reporter got some details wrong. In 1903 Harvey R. Holmes was head coach of the University of Utah team, not Utah State. Also, Utah State University is located in Logan, Utah not Salt Lake City. Besides that, Utah State was called Agricultural College of Utah or, colloquially as Utah Agricultural College (UAC). The gist of the article was correct, though.

To be continued….

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1903 Carlisle-Utah Game

April 16, 2011

Not too long ago, I was asked why Carlisle chose to play Utah on its post-season trip to California. After all, the teams had no history of playing each other and the University of Utah didn’t have the reputation of being a big-time football power. So, why did Pop Warner arrange to play its only game ever with Utah on December 19, 1903?

The first hint that Carlisle was planning post-season play that year was a piece in the November 13 edition of The Red Man and Helper ironically titled “Haskell’s Well Wishes” in which Haskell Superintendent H. B. Peairs was quoted as saying, “We hope now to see Northwestern [Carlisle’s last regular season opponent] beat Carlisle, as Carlisle has refused for three years to give us a game, saying that we were not in their class. If Northwestern beats them, they may come down a peg or two.”

Carlisle’s unattributed response probably came from Warner: “Haskell has never asked Carlisle for a game of football until after our schedule has been completed. We have never asserted that Haskell was not in Carlisle’s class. A comparison of the records of the two teams makes that unnecessary. We congratulate Haskell upon her good showing in the game against Chicago.” This response implies that, if Carlisle was considering post-season games, the schedule had been set already and Haskell had asked too late to get on the schedule. These words could be interpreted two different ways:

1) The comments were meant to be complimentary to Haskell as their win-loss records were comparable to Carlisle’s at that time.

2) It was a bit of a shot because, even though Haskell had a good record, its competition wasn’t at the same level as Carlisle’s. Also, Haskell had just lost to Chicago 17-11 where Carlisle had a winning record against contenders for being the Champions of the West.

Carlisle and Haskell would finally meet the next year, in 1904, but that is another story.

To be continued…

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1903 Season Ender Against Sherman Institute

April 5, 2011

A while back, I was asked about the scheduling of the Carlisle-Utah game on December 19, 1903. Based on what I had read at the time, I concluded that the reason for the trip to California trip that year was to play Reliance Athletic Association on Christmas Day in San Francisco and that the game with Sherman Institute on New Year’s Day in Riverside was a side trip. Well, that may actually be the opposite of what was the case.

In 1902, Carlisle alum Bemus Pierce took the job of coaching the Sherman Institute team in Riverside, California and, apparently, took it pretty seriously. CFBdatawarehouse.com lists their record as 8-1-0 with the Stanford & Santa Ana All-Stars being the team that scored the 6 points total scored against them that season. Victories included a 34-0 thumping of Occidental College and a 28-0 thrashing of Southern California, which many call USC.

The 1903 season didn’t turn out as well. Sherman Institute lost its season opener to Pomona-Pitzer in a more lopsided score than they had defeated them the previous year. They also lost to Stanford 18-0 but beat USC 12-0. With a 4-3 record, they were called West Coast Champions—surely a dubious title that year. Regardless, they suited up to play the eastern powerhouse in a New Year’s game.

Game reports indicate that this was one of the hardest fought games of football ever played in Southern California. Carlisle scored a touchdown just three and a half minutes into the game and would have been held with that score had it not been for a disputed play. Wilson Charles broke through the Sherman left tackle for a 45-yard touchdown run that the captain of the Sherman Institute team claimed was blown dead by Umpire Hauberman. Referee Tappan allowed the play. Sherman scored six points and lost 12-6 (Correct this score on page 47 of Steckbeck). Carlisle lost quarterback James Johnson and fullback Charles Williams early in the game to injuries. Sherman’s stars were Captain Neafus, for his fast playing, and Pierce for his defense work. So, it appears that Bemus Pierce suited up to play his old comrades. His playing days weren’t completely over. 

It wouldn’t be until 1916 that USC would beat Sherman Institute in the first game in which they scored on the Indians.

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More on the 1899 Carlisle-Hamilton College Game

April 1, 2011

As an alumnus of Hamilton College, John Pitaressi, a reporter for The Observer-Dispatch, is familiar with the game and posted a comment to initial message about the 1899 Carlisle-Hamilton College game although he wasn’t present at it. He has two possible reasons for why the game was scheduled:

1. Melancton Woolsey Stryker, President of Hamilton College, was very much an admirer of the Carlisle team and a big believer in football as a maker of men.

2. Hamilton Coach Edwin Sweetland, a former Cornell player, had a relationship with Pop Warner that lasted for years.

These reasons sound plausible. The financial deal that was struck surely played a part but we don’t know (as yet) what that was.

The game received considerable build up in the Syracuse newspapers (Utica is east of Syracuse, between it and Albany) because their readers could easily catch a train to attend the game and Syracusans hadn’t seen the Indians play their local college team. That didn’t happen until 1906. According to the November 5 edition of The Sunday Herald, the Indians rarely played outside of New York City and Chicago. Omitting their homes games or games played across town at Dickinson College, the previous season, in 1898, the Indians played at Ithaca and Albany in New York; New Haven, Connecticut; Cambridge, Massachusetts; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and Chicago, Illinois. Carlisle obviously played in many cities, including two smaller cities in New York State. In 1899, they did play two games in New York City but none, other than the Hamilton game, in smaller New York cities.

The Herald went on to say that playing the game in Utica happened because of the efforts of Congressman James S. Sherman of Utica, chairman of the House Committee on Indian Affairs. I suspect that Pitaressi is closer to the truth that was The Herald because Carlisle was playing most any team they felt like except Army and the War Department approved that in 1905. That 5,000 bought tickets to see the game probably made it worthwhile for both schools. Playing the Indians probably helped Hamilton improve its level of play, because the next year, 1900, they went 8-1-0 with wins over Williams and Colgate.

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